Thorpe-Scott — Sarah Ann Macklin

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Sarah Thorpe-Scott:

Sarah Ann Macklin is a model turned nutritionist and now author with Penguin Random House of Healthy Shouldn't Be This Hard. She's also the host of the acclaimed Live Well Be Well podcast, one of the UK's top health shows dedicated to demystifying health with both compassion and evidence-backed insight.

Her philosophy centres on dismantling our culture's punishing, self-critical approach to wellbeing and success, and replacing it instead with something most people never consider as a health or performance tool: self-compassion. Sarah Ann, welcome to We Don't Have to Live Like This.

Sarah Ann Macklin:

Thanks so much for having me, Sarah.

Sarah Thorpe-Scott:

Before we get into the science of self-compassion, I'd love to know more about your journey. I'm really intrigued. You started as a rather successful model, but you left all that behind for the health industry. What's, what's the story there?

Sarah Ann Macklin:

It doesn't quite fit, does it? They're quite [00:01:00] polarizing ends of the spectrum. But health is so fundamental to every part of our life, whether we realise it or not. And I was spotted at the age of 15 and started modelling at 16, so I was young. And back then as well, health also wasn't spoken about.

Social media wasn't around. And so you had, you know, just very formulaic NHS advice. Going into a whirlwind industry, very young, very quickly. You know, I lived in Paris and New York and there were loads of highs, but also lows as you can imagine being in that industry. I hadn't emotionally matured enough to handle that high-powered industry at that age, and there wasn't any support. And what was really interesting is when I lived in New York, when I was in my early twenties, everyone was talking about therapy and do you have a therapist? And I was thinking as an English person, like, oh my gosh, what do they think is wrong with me? And obviously there was nothing wrong with me, but that was their preventative measure of, you know, talking about mental health.

And I could not [00:02:00] relate to that being an English woman. So, you know, I didn't explore mental health. I didn't explore resilience. I didn't explore how to support the high pressure that I was in. And then also going alongside that, my whole body and my image was based on my weight, my height, how clear and perfect every inch of me was.

And so I think women already are put under such significant pressure when it comes to their body image and their appearance. And yet you put kind of a model label on that and you are every day looking at the most beautiful girl in the world and comparing yourself, 'cause that is how you make money. And so after many years of all of these different pressures, my body basically got habitual burnout and I was hospitalised. [00:03:00]

That was a really big wake-up call for me where I was like, wait, I'm meant to be the healthiest I've ever been. I'm having like the model diet, the workouts, all the things that you would probably open social media up at the beginning of the year and go, oh, I should want to do all of these things to have the best new-me look.

Yeah, I was unhappier than ever before, and unhealthier than ever before. And so for me, those two things made me explore down a rabbit hole of, well, how do I look after myself, my health, my mental health? Um, and yeah, that journey led me to where I am now.

Sarah Thorpe-Scott:

So interesting. Um, how old were you when you were hospitalised?

Sarah Ann Macklin:

23.

Sarah Thorpe-Scott:

That sounds so hard. Thanks so much for sharing more about that with us here. You've said that compassion, not discipline, is the missing ingredient in modern wellness. What does self-compassion actually mean to you? It's a buzzword that's often out there, but I think not really understood. I know you're a really excellent communicator and demystifier, so I'd love to just break that down. What does that actually mean in practical terms for people? [00:04:00]

Sarah Ann Macklin:

It's interesting 'cause for so long that word maybe felt cringe. You know, self-compassion to me was so woo-woo and coming from a scientific world, I really struggled. But what that has led me to understand is that it was my biggest lever — the thing I needed to understand most, because I had so much friction with it.

And for me, I always grew up being very critical of myself, and I think anyone that's a very type A person as well will have it even worse. And I've understood myself to be quite a perfectionist in that sense. So for me, failing equals I'm a failure. It's not data or understanding or learning. It's like I am a failure. And actually what that does is it demotivates you. It makes you more stressed. And so when I started understanding more about compassion, it was actually happening to me. I was being shown compassionate behaviour. And that's when I went to university. And, um, my biochemistry lecturer told me that [00:05:00] I was dyslexic, and it was a massive, profound moment. 'Cause I was about to drop out of school. I was like, I'm not good enough. I'm not, I'm not good. I'm not smart, you know, I'm not gonna be successful. Why the hell did I come back here? It was like a whole Legally Blonde moment was happening in front of my eyes.

And when she showed me compassion and she showed me that my brain worked differently and she made me understand myself — that was huge. Having that mirrored back to me, where somebody is showing you how you can understand yourself and you are not broken and you are not [00:06:00] a failure, was a really big moment for me to understand about the mind-body connection, but also start understanding about compassionate behaviour.

And because I was so depleted in self-compassion, it took someone being so overtly compassionate to me to mirror that back. And the more I got to understand about the mind-body connection and how important, you know, even a positive mindset — which I find really hard when you feel shit about yourself — would actually make me feel more shit about myself.

And so the only way that I started to understand how to motivate myself more and to be less self-critical — 'cause actually it wasn't working. You know, I'd stepped away from a highly successful career because the self-criticism was so much — was compassion. And then the more I explored that, there are so many different definitions.

So you've got Dr. Kristin Neff, who's kind of one of the pioneers in self-compassion work. You then have Professor Paul Gilbert here, who was also one of the UK pioneers in self-compassion work. And then you've even got new, modern, really interesting people coming up, like Yung Pueblo, who talks a lot about self-compassion, and everyone has a different concept and definition and theory of what self-compassion means.

But for me, ultimately what it means is treating yourself like you would somebody you love. And that's a very easy definition to try and get people to understand. 'Cause it's like, well, how often would you treat your best friend or your loved one the way you treat yourself? Very rarely. If you would say, what are you doing this weekend? [00:07:00] You might say, I'm cooking a nice meal for my friends that are coming over, or for my partner, or for a date or for my parents. But if I said to you, when was the last time you went out and cooked a really nice meal for yourself, you might think about it.

Really similarly, we have so many negative, critical thoughts 'cause our brain has evolved to keep us really safe and to be very critical. Like that's kind of how we've survived. And that's been an evolutionary way that our minds have developed. So it was actually — when you understand it — very protective. It's kind of kept you here alive.

But in today's modern world, where you feel that by the time you wake up and it's 7:00 AM you are already 10 steps behind everyone else that's had that ice bath and had their bulletproof coffee and done their 10 minutes of morning light, you already wake up and you're like, whoa, I'm so far behind.

So already your brain is telling you that you are not good enough. And then you think about the average mum who is trying to juggle everything right now on her shoulders. Women are meant to be more powerful at work than ever before. Strong leaders. They're best friends to all their girlfriends, the best girl group, and also be a mum and a partner, [00:08:00] and also support the household 50%. I mean, you are literally going to be Superwoman. And then on top of that, you're meant to think about all of these other health behaviours that you've got to be doing. And yet what they don't see is how much energy they expend by keeping the household together, running around, doing all of these extra things that, actually, it's really only mostly women do.

And when you start understanding that self-critical mindset that they then lead — it's really interesting 'cause a lot of research shows that just by thinking you are doing exercise, as well as actually doing it, you will metabolise your food differently. So if we can get people to be more compassionate with actually how much they are doing and the load that they're already taking on, we have much better outcomes of health behaviours.

And so when I started looking at this in a different way, started collating lots of different evidence in the self-compassion arena, and also in the perception arena with professors like Dr. Alia Crum, who I'm a huge fan of at Stanford, you start going, wow, it's so interesting, the messaging that we're handing out to people. [00:09:00] We're handing out this message that we've got to be doing more and better, and we're living in a world that's speeding up faster than ever before. Especially with AI coming in. We're more dissociated from ourselves than ever before, and we're harsher on ourselves than ever before because you've got this to-do list that just never ends.

So for me, bringing it all the way back to the original question, self-compassion as a three-stage process: I look at it as self-empathy — to start being kind to yourself as you would empathise with others. Can you empathise with yourself? Then becoming mindful, so allowing yourself to reflect back and understand how negotiating with yourself allows that moment for a pause and to have some mindfulness. And with that you can activate more of the high-road approach where you engage in more rational decision making, as opposed to the low-road approach where you bypass rational decision making and make a very reactive outcome.

And then over time, [00:10:00] those moments help build resilience. And with more resilience, you gain more self-trust. And with more self-trust, you're way more motivated to get up and go again. So that's how I look at self-compassion. I think it's a really underrated health tool that we've not spoken about and that we've lost over the last 10 years of the wellness boom.

Sarah Thorpe-Scott:

Man, there's so much in there. That's so good. Um, so first I'll just say — self-compassion. I also love the simplicity of your definition, which I think is easy for people to grasp, which is treating yourself like someone you love. And the three steps that you mentioned there are also really interesting.

There's a few things I just kind of want to react to. I think I'm hearing in there, um, I don't know if this is a term, but even when you were talking about feeling 10 steps behind in the morning — I'm going to call it the wellness industrial complex of just the overload of all the shoulds. [00:11:00]

And, we should be careful — as I say, should be careful about shoulds. I myself am a new-ish mum. I have a 20-month-old, and I especially notice how so many of the wellness trends or advice seems very skewed, unwittingly, towards a person who does not have a small child. It's something I could have done pre-kid, or that frankly a lot of men still don't have the same level of responsibility for.

Statistically there's tons of research. Eve Rodsky writes a ton about this in Fair Play. I imagine you've come across her work. So I just kind of laugh because a lot of the stuff that I see out there is great, and I think if you can do it, you should do it and not feel any guilt around that. But it's not really all that tenable for most women or parents who are really active with all of the things that need to be done with taking care of young children in a household. So I'm just noting that, and I want to name that for people because I do [00:12:00] think a lot of people are carrying the weight of all the things.

And I'm curious to get into it more.

Sarah Ann Macklin:

I could tell you a really good study. So this is one thing where, you know, we've labelled health as this thing where it's meant to be this optimised checklist. I mean, I just don't like the word optimisation. I think it's a ridiculous measure of health and we're never meant to be optimal.

We're not meant to be happy the whole time. The brain is not evolved to be happy. If you search for that, you are going to be miserable. And it's so similar in the health metrics. And for me, health fluctuates. Health is all about, in the moment, where you are with the resources that you have on hand. And yet a lot of the time we're being shown this kind of health checklist [00:13:00] that comes from a very specific 1% of the population saying these are the things that you should be doing to stay healthy, with no idea of that person's resources and no idea of what life stage they're in.

So that's one of the most important things. And Professor Ellen Langer, who is one of the oldest, leading women researchers at Harvard — she's pioneered research that's all about understanding how your beliefs and your perceptions change your physiology. And I find this really interesting because at the moment we're talking about health in so many verticals — just nutrition, or just movement, or just mindfulness. And there are all these individual verticals of health. But what really underpins it for me is self-compassion. If we have that, all of these things start falling into place a little bit easier, because we then make decisions based on the resources that we have.

Professor Langer wanted to look at hotel maids. Now if you think about hotel maids, they're on their feet all day every day. [00:14:00] They're hoovering. They're changing beds. They're carrying washing. Like it's actually quite a physically demanding job when you look at it. And they don't sit down, unlike maybe you and I who might sit at our desks a lot of the day. And so she asked them how often they believed they worked out, and a lot of them responded the same way: I don't really have time because I'm working all day as a hotel maid.

And so she took a lot of their measures — their blood glucose, their fasting blood glucose, their waist circumference, which is a really important indicator of overall health metrics linked to metabolic disease and cardiovascular disease. And then she told one group that, actually, do you know your job is very physically demanding? You actually burn this many calories. It's actually the same as going to the gym and doing this many things. So she kind of broke down how physically active they were. And then later on when she followed up the study, she looked at the two groups again, and the ones she had told that they were doing a lot of exercise and a lot of work had actually reduced their waist circumference. [00:15:00]

They'd actually lost weight. Their blood glucose had lowered after eating certain foods. Their perception, their beliefs — nothing else changed, just the realisation that they were doing laborious work every day which equalled the same amount as going to the gym.

And so I'm thinking, you know, with an active mum who is constantly on her feet or rushing to take the kids to nursery or to school, doing washing or hoovering or whatever it is, the constant laborious activity is the same as your friend going to the gym and doing a Pilates class in the morning. But our perception is so different, and yet just by understanding that belief, you physically can lose weight, you can have better blood glucose responses. So I find that really interesting in terms of how we're messaging health. Unless you're doing this exact routine, you're not being healthy. But actually we need to look at health in a different way and give ourselves credit for what we are doing.

Sarah Thorpe-Scott:

I've heard about this study and you just beautifully described it in a way that's so relatable. So thank you for that. And it is absolutely fascinating, and I agree it's [00:16:00] really important for us to realise that health and success generally can look very different for very different people. That's just a really incredible example that we can kind of wrap our arms around. I'm curious — do we know why, scientifically, a person believing that they're exercising versus someone not believing they're exercising, when the behaviour is exactly the same in either case, would have different results?

Sarah Ann Macklin:

I think we don't have a definitive answer, but a lot of the research I've looked into points to our understanding of stress and perception. There are two things really. One is that we know that when we're more on our own side and we're not being self-critical, we have a lower stress response. And so that's really, really important for our hormone functioning, for our metabolic functioning, for how we respond within ourselves. And we know that stress is one of the leading factors of inflammation. [00:17:00]

And so when we start looking at how our thoughts are such a powerhouse on how our body responds — there are some explanations that seem very intuitive. Your inflammation lowers, your stress response lowers, your blood glucose behaves the way it's meant to. You also have more of a rational brain available. Maybe you're less stressed in other areas of your life. Maybe because you feel you're working harder, you actually put a bit more effort in. There are lots of different variables as to why this outcome could be, but the thing I find so fascinating is that I don't think we'll ever have a pure, definitive answer.

Because I think we've disconnected the mind from the body so much. And the problem I see with scientific research — and it does have to be this way to certain degrees — is that we've dialled down in one area so much that we've forgotten how they all link. We've dialled down so much into understanding the immune function that we just look at the immune cells. [00:18:00] We're so obsessed with the gut microbiome, as we should be — it plays such a fundamental role — but we've dialled down only into that area and kind of missed how they all link horizontally. They all work together in a system. Our body is one main system, and the power of this is understanding that your mind and body aren't separate entities. They should work together.

So telling yourself that you're not doing enough, that you're a loser, that someone else is doing better, that the person you open on Instagram is 10 steps ahead of you or has lost those three kilos and you haven't — you are constantly telling yourself that you're not good enough. And that drives so many internal processes and how your body functions. We know that stress is one of the leading causes of death. Even though it's not written on the death certificate — you'll see dementia — we know that stress is one of the underlying factors. So having that self-compassionate mindset is so important, 'cause we know that it lowers the stress response.

Sarah Thorpe-Scott:

There's so much wisdom in everything that you've shared. And another thing I just want to reiterate is that self-compassion is not [00:19:00] just a nice, touchy-feely, kind sort of thing — it's actually getting better results. It's making people more successful. It's making people healthier. And what you're talking about in terms of mind-body connection, I know you're talking about health benefits, but this just really resonates and aligns with a lot of my work as a coach.

We often think about results all day long in our businesses, for our teams. Most leaders, most highly switched-on ambitious people are thinking about what they need to do in order to have those results. And of course we need to do things and do them well to a high technical degree to get great results. But something most people never ask is: how do I need to be in order to do the thing, to have the results? [00:20:00]

And so when I work with people — any clients of mine would know this — I talk about being versus doing, to the point that they may eye-roll at me, but it usually does click for people. You might need to feel capable, or to be confident, or have certain beliefs going into something. Like, you don't need to be perfect, you just need to be good enough. But oftentimes our state of being is one that is not self-compassionate, and that's a real direct link I'm hearing between your work and the way I operate with clients.

You might want to see where there is a self-compassionate way of being or thinking to go alongside the actions that you're already doing, 'cause you actually get better results if you're going in a certain way as opposed to being hard-charging. And leaders often really need to dial back and be calmer, for instance, when they're going into a room. They don't need to be more assertive necessarily.

So I just think that's really interesting, and I think there's so much work to be done [00:21:00] around the mind-body connection in our educational systems and how we raise people and function in society. There's so much more to talk about, and I can already see we're going into the science and data. I do want to ask though, before we go further — I imagine some of this has to do with what you were describing in terms of your health journey, where you were modelling and ended up hospitalised despite doing all of the healthy things you were supposed to be doing.

I'm wondering what your own We Don't Have to Live Like This moment was. What was the thing that made it click for you that there had to be a better way to approach health and performance? Is there a specific lightbulb moment that happened, or was it a series of events?

Sarah Ann Macklin:

I'd say there were two. It was definitely — the first was the hospitalisation at 23. I mean, it was scary. I nearly lost my life. I was really, really ill for a very long time. And it was interesting because I had, you know, the renal doctor [00:22:00] there and the cardiovascular doctor there and the haematology doctor there, and they were all talking about different parts of my body that were obviously shutting down. And I just remember being like, wow, this is so segregated. There are so many interesting individuals standing here talking about each organ. And in my mind I was like, this doesn't make sense. I'm living by the protocol.

And so obviously when I went back, that was my first pivot into: this isn't working. I've got to figure out what is. Because I also couldn't find any information online that I related to. The wellness boom was starting, but for me that was a trap that I was getting caught in. I was getting told misinformation, or very reductionist ideas on how I should be thin and how I can keep a perfect bum and how my waist can be a certain size — but ultimately, drinking a green juice and massaging kale was not my road to health, even though this is what everyone was making it sound like it [00:23:00] was.

And that's where it's really interesting, because health then becomes a marketing vehicle. By 2027, the wellness industry is going to be $8 trillion. That's mind-blowing. That just shows the boom in the last 10 years. And so for me, I was like, I've just got to figure this out. And I'm, my brain's pretty curious. And so I left and went back to school and did my Bachelor of Science in Human Nutrition.

And it was in that — again, in the first six weeks of going back, and this wasn't an easy decision. It took me a year to get there, and everyone around me saying, you are making the worst decision of your life. So you can imagine me going from money to no money, leaving a good career to go back to school, leaving New York to go back to London. [00:24:00] Like, is this really the right route? But when I did, and I had so much fear about going back to school because I'd never enjoyed it. I'd never felt that I was very good. I'd never felt that I was very smart. I always felt that I was daydreaming. I was always told to get out of class 'cause I was talking too much.

And so when I went back to school, I remember feeling that zoned-out feeling again. And then my biochemistry teacher said, next week we have to stand up and give a talk on our own about oxidative phosphorylation. And my brain just completely gave way. I was like, I'm done. I'm not going to embarrass myself. So I went to her office and I just said, look, I want to hand in my resignation. I want to drop out. This wasn't right for me. I thought this was the right course. It's not. And she looked at me and was like, why are you dropping out? I was like, I'm just not smart. And those words kind of stung her a bit. And she was like, why would you say that? And I was like, well, I've known that my whole life. And it just was so flippant to me, 'cause I'd been so used to saying those words. And she was like, you are smart. [00:25:00]

And I laughed and was like, it's really kind of you. But I'm not going to stay. You don't need to try and persuade me. I was like, I'm having panic attacks about this and that's not okay. And she said, have you ever thought that you might be neurodivergent? And I'm like, what is that? And this is going back over 10 years ago.

And she was like, I think you might be dyslexic. And I'm like, what is that? What is this word? And she explained to me what it was. I went through all the tests and two hours later, the person who was giving me the test was like, I want you to know that you are dyslexic. This is how your brain works. And she gave me really simple analogies and she was like, but you are very, very smart and you need to understand that.

And I could not, for the life of me, accept that statement. I was like, I've never been told I'm smart. So I find that really hard. And she was like, but you are — your test proved that you are. You've just never understood your brain. And I didn't really understand what she meant by not understanding my brain. This whole concept was so new. But when she actually laid out how my brain works, I burst into tears. 'Cause I was like, that is how my brain works. But I never had the emotional granularity — which allows you to describe [00:26:00] emotions and language in the way that she did — to articulate it. So it was like someone had stepped into my brain, told me what was going on, and then flipped it back at me.

And that moment changed everything for me. That was the moment when I really believed I was in the right place. I was like, if this can have such a profound effect on me, I also realised the huge weight of how powerful your thoughts are, how you need to understand yourself, your brain, your self-awareness — all of these things.

And I was like, wow, okay, so nutrition is going to play a part, but that is actually not what I believe was the root mechanism that got me here. Just having that one person believe in me and being able to relate it back changed everything for me, changed the trajectory of how I practise today, and how my curiosity of all this just grew. I feel lucky that I've taken — and I've led with that — even though I had no clear direction of where it was going. But my job has also [00:27:00] helped me understand myself to a level I didn't ever think was possible. And that moment is one I will never forget.

Sarah Thorpe-Scott:

I mean, that actually brought tears to my eyes. The thought of you believing that you weren't smart and telling that to professors — actually heartbreaking to me. And it's also so uplifting to know that that course was changed for you. And I'm so glad you just shared that story because I wanted to ask more about how that professor displayed compassion and you just illustrated it so beautifully. It's such an interesting example that I think we can all keep in mind, because everyone has the capacity to do that for other people — and especially people who are leading teams or leading in any way, even if they're not officially a leader.

Sarah Ann Macklin:

And it's so important. 'Cause without that, I don't know if I'd have found the compassion in myself. You know, you just need that one person to believe, and you need that one person to show you that you are worthy [00:28:00] and to see your strengths. Because I think what I'd realised through this is that I'd only ever seen my weaknesses.

Everything was displayed in my weaknesses. Everything I couldn't do at school, everything I was bad at. I later found out — only last year — that I have a lot of neurodiversity crossover. And I was told that I have ADHD. A big reason why I was never, ever, ever able to sit in a classroom and was always told to get out of class. I was so restless, but that was displayed as something very different. And I was never a naughty kid. And so all I ever took was, oh my God, these are all the things I'm so bad at.

And when you are relayed all your weaknesses constantly, and this kind of happens in the schooling system, you then leave with this imprint of: these are all the things I know I'm not good at. And I'd spent my life putting energy into covering up the weaknesses, so I never had time to explore what my brain was good at. [00:29:00] I had no wide lens to go, oh, actually you're good at this. Put time into that. Because I'd spent my whole life patching my weaknesses. I just was told I wasn't good enough. So that imprint had laid a massive mark in my mind.

So being told, but you are actually good at these things — focus on these things — opened up my brain. And if you think about how many thoughts we have a day, it's between 70,000 and 90,000. And there's a theory that for every three to one thought, one is a negative thought. Some people say as high as five to one is a negative thought. So if you think the majority of your thoughts are negative, so much of this is distilled from all your weaknesses that you've always been aware of, because we all have them — that's what makes us human and amazing. But so often we never focus on the things that we're really good at.

So that was also a very big moment where I was like, wow, I could be good at this thing. And it led me to dial more into my strengths. And actually, as you become an adult, that becomes more of a superpower [00:30:00] — to understand and own those strengths, and also own your weaknesses. 'Cause there are a ton of things I'm still bad at.

Sarah Thorpe-Scott:

And this is a perfect example — a real-life example — of how your thoughts do matter so much, because your brain hasn't changed. You're the same person with the same limitations, and also the same strengths. But becoming more knowledgeable about yourself, actually engaging with what was a very difficult thing, and being given the gift of being able to have a new thought that also felt true for you about how your brain worked — that was very powerful here. And this is a specific, great example of what I think we're both trying to convey. 'Cause sometimes people can say, ah, that doesn't make sense. Like, why would your thoughts matter? [00:31:00]

I mean, it matters that you think differently and that you realise that you're smart, although your brain is maybe different from what was supposedly the norm — I'm using air quotes for anyone listening — when you were growing up and going through the schooling system. I'm also curious if you think that, you know, this kind of perfectionism, sometimes shame and comparison that you've talked about in your own journey — and that's often the norm that I think almost anyone listening would recognise sometimes in themselves, and sometimes just in a culture of achievement — I'm wondering if you also think any part of this is to do with a modern context. Do you also think that the biological and evolutionary wiring is at odds with, or maybe even going into overdrive with, the demands of modern society? Those negative thoughts. I just keep thinking a lot about our nervous system, [00:32:00] and the negative thoughts, and how tech and our lack of protocols and rituals around it are often keeping us from regulating our nervous system and going into the patterns that we need to for rest. I'll pause there. I'm curious for your take on that.

Sarah Ann Macklin:

I think the optimisation, bro culture is completely killing us. It's led by — and I don't want to call them out or demonise them because they're doing what they believe is correct — but it's the only voice that's kind of shining through right now, and the recovery piece feels like a separate system that's never integrated into one.

And so I think we've kind of lost our way in the messaging, which is why I'm so passionate and purpose-driven in bringing self-compassion into that conversation. It's like when I mentioned that our brains [00:33:00] haven't changed or evolved in 10,000 years, yet our environment has changed dramatically in that time.

And so I talk a lot about life dysmorphia. Body dysmorphia is when you see your body in a way that's very different from what's actually happening — you might see yourself as double the size you actually are looking in the mirror. It's an eating disorder, it's known in the DSM-5, and it's a very serious issue that a lot of people really struggle with. I think we have something very similar with life now. Life dysmorphia, where we're on this hedonic treadmill, seeing the best version of everyone all the time. And actually, I would say to people right now: if you looked at yourself in 20 years' time and looked back at yourself right now, you would feel that you'd want to get back to how you are feeling and looking right now. Yet right now we never feel good enough.

And it's interesting — you go back a hundred years and a hot shower was a luxury. Hot showers didn't really happen a hundred years ago. Yet we wake up today and that's just a given, [00:34:00] like we don't even think about it. Children now live past the age of one. A hundred years ago, that wasn't a given. You know, we have so many things today that are just a given, and yet we are unhappier than ever before. So two things can be true. Subjectively and objectively we can have a better life, but we can also feel worse about where we are right now.

And so I find those two things a really interesting paradox to sit in. Why is it that we feel worse, but we've actually never had it better? Those two truths are true. And it's also not to say that people aren't experiencing real pain in what's happening today — there is a lot of pain in how people can feel in the environments we're brought up in and live in day to day. But if we actually look at what we have, we have a lot. And so it's a really interesting understanding of the brain: it hasn't had time to develop into the environment it's in, into the pressures we're under right now.

And so [00:35:00] so much of it is not that you're wrong for having anxiety, or you're wrong for feeling self-criticism. That is actually an evolutionary adaptation of your brain to keep you alive. That's probably the reason why you're actually here today. Understanding that part is so critical to developing more self-compassionate behaviour. 'Cause if you didn't have that, you wouldn't have made it through evolution. You would be dead. Knowing that is so important.

But then what can you do to help move your environment? It's the awareness. A lot of us can go through life thinking, why am I feeling so shit? Like, what is it that I can't seem to do that Carol or Susan can do really, really well? And it's that constant feeling that your brain is not quite good enough, or not functioning enough, or not performing enough. It's actually so much to do with the environment and the information diet that we're taking in constantly. And so you add on to that the [00:36:00] constant use of screen time, the constant access to all the knowledge we now have on how to be the best version of you in 2026, how to be the healthiest version of you in 2026. We just become information overloaded and completely disconnect the mind from the body. We basically run intellectually, but emotionally we've become very underdeveloped.

And so it's kind of time to bring those two things back into one paradigm and look at it as the whole body, and start trying to adapt and change your environment to support you and your mental health. Making certain things — self-compassionate behaviours — into habits. Being aware of how you talk to yourself. Growing into that self-awareness. Understanding more somatic work. Like, how does your body actually feel? Don't tell yourself how you feel. Like, how do you actually feel? Have you taken a stop and a pause at any point in your day, or have you just run? Of course, if you've just run and not given yourself any moment to think, then of course you're going to be feeling like shit. [00:37:00]

And so it's about getting these tools to become habits, like cleaning your teeth. The majority of the reason why we clean our teeth is probably aesthetic — we don't want to be toothless. But we also know how important that is for our general health. It's trying to get mental tools into a very similar space. Not waking up already thinking that you are behind in your day. And the first thing I say is just this: if we do anything, just be aware of how often you speak to yourself the way you wouldn't speak to someone you love. That's a really profound shift. 'Cause a lot of us just think it's normal — it's normal that we speak to ourselves in a really crap way. And every time we do, try and think of someone that you love and reflect it back at yourself. Those moments really can make a massive change.

Sarah Thorpe-Scott:

I think this is the perfect segue as we think about what we can do differently. I have in my mind people I know who are incredibly self-critical, and I'm wondering for someone who's listening [00:38:00] who themselves is very self-critical, or someone they love is really self-critical, how would you help them begin to either help themselves or help the other person start putting self-compassion into practice?

Sarah Ann Macklin:

Yeah, it's one of those things, isn't it? It's so easy to talk about it. It's bloody hard to implement. Like, it sounds so easy. And that's what I always struggled with around self-compassion. When I got to the third part of my book — the tools section — I rewrote that part like four or five times. I was like, this is the hardest part to write. It is so easy to display all this evidence and to tell you stories, but how do you write about self-compassion as a tool? That's why I really struggled with it.

And I think it's a really important part because I try to split it into three different areas. [00:39:00] I think you have to first realise where you are — where do you stand in your self-compassion behaviour? We all have a scale. And I think understanding how self-compassionate you are, what motivators you use, what language you use, what your main draws are when it comes to self-criticism — where are you on a scale? I've developed that within my book so people can fill it out and figure out where they are.

I also then say: understanding where your self-worth sits. Self-worth is a really important indicator of self-compassion, and very different to self-esteem. Self-esteem is where you see yourself as better than others. And if you're not better than others, your self-esteem drops, which is why it's a really poor indicator of your self-worth. Self-compassion is way better — it doesn't mean you have to be better or worse than anyone else. So understanding where your self-worth sits, how often it fluctuates, what areas it fluctuates in, and whether you're drawing it from external [00:40:00] sources or more internal sources — that's also really important. And the majority of us will be doing it externally. Validation for us is massive. But that's why it's a really poor basis for self-worth, because as soon as that external validation goes, your self-worth drops. So it's about understanding where inside you this mostly comes from.

Once you start understanding those levers, you'll have a kind of blueprint of where you can start working. We're all going to have areas where we need more support than others. Another thing I always try to get people to understand is: are you more of a thinker or a feeler? And so having different tools accordingly — if you're more of a thinker and you're more up in your mind a lot, having more somatic work is going to be really important. We need to get you back in your body. That's a really, really important step. If you're more of a feeler and you're very emotional, trying to get things that are more rational, written down, and analytical can actually be really helpful to draw you back into some logic and understanding, and not just be led by your feelings.

So trying to understand which camp you sit in — this is all part of understanding [00:41:00] who you are. And that's why in this book I try to get you to make your own formula, your own blueprint, because I really believe that health is so individual. And the more you can understand who you are, the more you integrate these tools of self-compassion.

So a couple of examples. Say if you're going for a workout and you're not sure how you are feeling, I always try and reference the film Freaky Friday — if you're a millennial like me, you probably know it, with Lindsay Lohan, where they switch bodies with her mum. I try to get somebody, before they stand on their yoga mat or before they put their shoes on to go and work out, to switch into somebody else's body. Visualise. 'Cause visualisation is also a huge part of getting you to connect really to the sensations in your body. Take someone you love, put them in yourself, and then ask those questions: how am I feeling today? [00:42:00] And put yourself in their body — say it's Fred. You're putting yourself into Fred's body. How's Fred feeling today? It's so much easier when you're not so associated with yourself — you have a bit of a disconnect and you're looking in on a third party, which allows you to answer more honestly.

So trying to use somebody else's perspective allows you that one step of being maybe a bit more honest with yourself. Maybe you can push yourself harder today. Maybe you're going to go easy, but you actually realise you've got more in you than you realised. Or maybe you're not feeling the best, so you use a visualisation of someone that you love and put them into your body as you're physically putting on your trainers or standing at the top of your yoga mat.

Another one I really love is what I call small permission slips. Write yourself four different questions and use them when you feel you're getting to a state of overwhelm or disconnection. Use these permission slips like you would at school. Give yourself permission for [00:43:00] time off, or give yourself permission for the things that you know you need. Very rarely will we allow that to ourselves. And I think it's a really amazing, quick thing you can pull out when you know you're getting to that stage of overwhelm, disconnection, self-criticism.

Um, another one is going for a gratitude walk. I try to combine two different things: we know that gratitude really helps increase self-worth and helps you concentrate on things. But you've got to explain the gratitude — not just "I'm thankful for my friends." It could be, I'm thankful for my friends for the reasons that I have three friends I can call. That's a really big thing in today's world where a lot of people feel very lonely. It's trying to extend that and telling yourself why that's so powerful. And if you connect that to a walk, we know that people who walk in more leafy green areas — even if it's just got trees — also have increased levels of mindfulness. And mindfulness is really important to help stop that loop of rumination, [00:44:00] the constant cycle of negative thoughts and self-criticism. And then you're going to adjoin that with something you're grateful for. Trying to put those two things together allows you that space, but it also helps with the neural wiring and starts getting you more into the self-compassionate mindset.

So there are lots of different ways that people can connect to these things. I've written about 50 of them in the book. But I'd say the first thing is: understand whether you're more of a thinker or a feeler. That's a really important one, because naturally the thinkers are going to go to the analytical tools, and I try to push them more towards the somatic work to get them in their bodies — and vice versa. If you're a feeler, go towards the thinker strategies.

Sarah Thorpe-Scott:

It's like know thyself, and it's a little bit of a yin-yang approach where you probably need to go where you're less comfortable. I love that. I'm very intrigued to see [00:45:00] the tool around where you actually are on the scale first. And I love that it's also a personalised blueprint, 'cause everyone's so different.

I have two final questions for you. The first: how do we move towards a more self-compassionate society? I know what you're talking about is the micro level — equipping individuals with tools to become more self-compassionate. But if we were thinking about infrastructural, societal-level change, what could we do at a systemic level that might make society more self-compassionate?

Sarah Ann Macklin:

Gosh, you're asking in a really interesting climate right now. I mean, there are a lot of ways this can go, but it might just be a really, it feels like a really mundane answer — but it actually feels like the only one that would ever work. So much of compassion is about being mirrored. I mean, systemic change also happens on individual levels.

It doesn't just happen at the top. These things have to happen by every single person doing their part, as well as the top changing — but the top also has to change. And so if you're thinking about the people at the top of each of their industries [00:46:00] — the ones who have a real difference of how they lead their teams — how are they? Are they self-compassionate? I can think of a lot of people who aren't. I can think of a lot of people who don't mirror any compassion. And it's dominated by a very specific type of person. These don't tend to have compassionate health behaviours or compassionate behaviours at all.

The way you actually make changes is by leading by change. And so when it comes to compassion, you have to lead as that to help influence others. And thinking about anything in social change, we actually are mirroring what we're seeing a lot from above — in sports, in media, in interesting thought leaders and politicians. Like, we're all actually sheep. We're all actually mirroring what people are showing us, and we're doing it because we know we have to fit in. A lot of the reasons why behaviours happen is because fitting in [00:47:00] is survival. If we don't fit in, we're excluded. And so having that is really important.

And so I think the way that you create more of a compassionate society is by having leaders who are compassionate. And also by being that yourself, which creates a ripple effect — and the ripple effect is such a, you know, a known analogy. But you can't change things unless you are. You can only change by being. And so if you are that compassionate person, you show someone else what that compassionate behaviour looks like, and you end up creating a ripple effect. It's very hard to be mad at someone who's just being constantly compassionate and kind to you. You can still get people who are, but it's much harder. It's way easier to have an argument or disagree with somebody who's also disagreeing very heavily with you.

But you also have to have enough to extend compassion outwards, because extending compassion out and giving empathy is also exhausting if you don't feel you've got enough to give, or if you give it out and then get compassion fatigue, [00:48:00] which is a whole other thing. Making sure that you also have enough to extend outwards is important. So it's definitely a two-way street. I think you can only make change with how you lead and how you practise, and I think that's really essential to the core of any change.

Sarah Thorpe-Scott:

Yeah. One final question with our one minute left. What can we do today that future generations will thank us for?

Sarah Ann Macklin:

Being authentic to yourself and your views and who you are. I think we are in a huge fear of losing authenticity with the rise of AI, and I think authenticity is going to be such a powerful tool. I think we need to teach people to think creatively for themselves. I think we need to teach people to have their own opinions and understand what that means. I do worry that a lot of things now are AI-generated. Any LinkedIn post, any text, everything [00:49:00] automated. I mean, who knows in four years whether the podcast we're watching is real or not. We just don't know.

And so I think if we can teach people to keep their creativity, to keep human error, and to keep their authenticity — that's also staying true to yourself so you have more of a sense of self. And I also think authenticity is going to be so important for the next generation.

Sarah Thorpe-Scott:

Thank you so much, Sarah Ann. I'm sure this is going to be so helpful for so many people. We appreciate you coming on the podcast.

Sarah Ann Macklin:

Thank you so much for having me, Sarah.